Evolution Happened....

[XxAstron12xX]

i keep looking stuff up and all i get is "why evolution is true" and "why evolution isn't true" stuff so I'm gonna do this the old fashioned way... but in the meantime think about the fact that evolutionsts always use macro evolution to back up their claims.

[red_converse]

I'm not arguing the evolution front. Just want you to give me reference on the statement you made about Darwin purposefully leading people astray and renouncing his studies.

You gotta be able to back up what you say.

[ClothedInRoses]

I'd heard about the Darwin recantation too, but have also seen a lot of sources saying it was made up. Also, at least from what I've seen, he knew there were holes in his theory and was very bothered by them.

If anyone has free time, there's a book called "Darwin's Black Box" by Michael J. Behe that looks at macroevolution (the idea that all life evolved from one organism) from a biochemist perspective. LOTS of technical details, but it's really cool. I read part of it in high school just out of curiosity, gave up when the science went over my head, and am now trying again. Basically, Behe's point is that there's no way life could have evolved in a step-by-step process, just because there are too many interconnected steps that would have to happen all at once in order to make any benificial change.

[Ric]

I know this is an old thread, but I must chime in with a point or two:

The young earth theory requires faith to believe in, but then doesn't being a Christian? My case for it lies in Genesis. The Hebrew word for "day" in Gen:1 is "yom", and it has NO OTHER MEANING THAN A 24-HR PERIOD OF TIME. Not only that, but at each step of the Creation story, it goes on to say "and there was evening and morning - the first/second/etc day". So if you doubt that God created the universe in SIX DAYS, you're already wavering in your faith on the first page of God's Word. Not trying to offend, but then this isn't my story anyway. It's God's. I just happen to believe it.

From that, you can use the genealogy in Genesis from Adam to Jacob to calculate that the earth was about 2206 years old when Jacob and Esau were born, around 2006BC. So:

2206 + 2006 + 2011 = the universe is about 6223 years old, give or take a few minutes.

A little-known practice in radiocarbon/radioisotope dating... the scientists who do these procedures are trained to match their findings to the age range that THEY THINK a particular sample fits in. In other words, if they THINK something should be billions of years old, they'll dismiss any calculations that find otherwise, and call the sample "contaminated", or an "anomaly". In reality, if you used radioisotope dating methods to see how old I am, I may wind up being 91,472,091 years old... but I assure you, I'm 35. The scientists doing this - while WAAYYY smarter than I am - are simply stacking the final results to suit their opinions. Otherwise, why would they throw out the results? Proverbs says the LORD hates dishonest scales. I can't remember the name of the book I read this in, but it shed a bright light on the billions-of-years-old issue for me.

Got an hour? This link is a very good read on the topic... just bear with the technical and scientific jargon: http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c007.html

The Bible says that death entered the world when Adam sinned. If so, then how could T-rex have been killing and eating other animals 65 million years before man came on the scene? Somebody's wrong, eh? There's also a gap theory that basically says God started over after the dinosaurs, which has absolutely no Scripture to back it up.

As for evolution, "this missing link" between us and chimps... I dunno if anyone knows this, but it's still missing. Also, the idea of evolution is rooted in survival of the fittest. That would suggest that homo sapiens is more equipped to handle this world. HARDLY THE CASE. We have no claws to defend ourselves, no fangs to catch prey, no fur to keep warm... we aren't even the most intelligent animals! Dolphins and killer whales are more intelligent than us. So why are humans still here? Made in God's Image, maybe? Even if we were the fittest, then why have chimps thrived? Shouldn't they have died off, or more reasonably gradually morphed into humans?

[red_converse]

The Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament (1980, Moody Press) :
"Yom can denote: 1. the period of light (as contrasted with the period of darkness), 2. the period of twenty-four hours, 3. a general vague 'time,' 4. a point of time, 5. a year (in the plural; I Sam 27:7; Ex 13:10, etc.)."

My argument for a 24 hour day rests on the flowers and plants being created before the sun and the bugs needed to pollenate. I wrote a paper on this not too long ago, and I did move toward a Young Earth view, but having researched the other views, I can see some legitimacy in several of them. I have professors who aren't Young Earth people but are still deeply rooted in their faith.

they had put a "year" on Creation ages ago and had it printed in Bibles, but it had to be removed because, really, it's not definitive that the Bible lists every year leading up to now. Traditionally, only years of importance were mentioned. We humans need to realize we as creation can never fully understand and describe our Creator. All in all, what ultimately saves us? Being Young Earth Creationists? Or belonging to Jesus?

Not trying to pick a fight, but I think it's a bold - and, no offense, over the line - statement that one must have a Young Earth view or we are wavering in faith and doubting God. I think God can create the universe however He likes, and we can ask Him how He did it once we get there. This subject has torn too many Christians apart. We can agree that God created the world. How and how long... well, that was up to God.

I'm glad to see you took time to do research on the subject, though, and have sources for your statements. They're definitely necessary when debating with evolutionists and atheists.

But I will challenge you to rethink your view that it's Young Earth or you're a weak Christian.

[Ric]

No offense taken. I doubt the thief on the cross was worried about the age of the earth. And thanks for the reference on yom... I've heard a lot of evangelists say that it could only mean 24 hours. I may even be wrong on what word was used too, I dunno. I'll hafta make sure.

But yeah the main thing is being known by Jesus. As for the age of the universe, the young earth idea has the smallest margin of error when you compare it with the procedures and the treatment of results obtained by radio isotope methods. As for weak faith, I was referring to doubting what is written in the Bible. If we doubt one thing, what keeps us from doubting it all? "A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough."

Just so ya know I'm no scholar in the Word. I still have yet to read it all the way through, even. I'm just a human capable of failing just as easy as the next man. If anyone needed and depended on God's grace, it's me. Just thought everyone may wanna know that in case I've come across as a know-it-all.

[red_converse]

It is indeed the word yom that is used, but it's used throughout the Bible in many ways.

This site did a word study on yom: http://www.answersincreation.org/word_study_yom.htm

you'll notice this is where I grabbed the definition (mostly cuz I was too lazy to type out what mine said! >.<")

hope it helps.

[Reach2011]

I don't believe in evolution. I just don't understand the common Christian belief that the earth is 6000 years old.

Genealogies. Combine the number of generations with the average lifespan, and we can determine that Adam lived about 4000 years before Jesus.

[number2-JC]

well i have one good point for evolution. the guys that built our house, i think they were the missing link!

i think it takes a bigger leap to believe in evolution then it does to believe in god.

because there is no way something served at red lobster turned into this incredibly complex being they call a "homo sapien" with the help of a few million years and natural selection.

[Ric]

If evolution is truth, then why are chimpanzees still here? Shouldn't they have evolved away?

[Reach2011]

Ric, that wouldn't be how it works....

Although I don't buy into Evolution, I'm pretty certain Natural Selection is real, as science has actually been able to demonstrate it. Additionally, Noah only rescued 2 of each KIND of animal. So in order for there to be the variety there is today, diversification must have happened.

Additionally, I'm not necessarily "young-earth" either. Even though I'm pretty sure there were between 4000 and 10000 years between Adam and Jesus, we can't know how long Adam was in the Garden before the fall. And we cannot know how long after the eating of the fruit that God kicked them out. We're they in the Garden for a week? A year? A billion years? Let's not forget the reason God kicked them out is to keep them away from the Tree of Eternal Life. Adam and Eve could have conceivably lived billions of years in the Garden.

Also, the Bible never says Adam and Eve were the ONLY humans created. Genesis simply highlights them because they are the ancestors of the Jews, and the Jews didn't really care about anyone else, so those records wouldn't have been included. I find it very probable that God created men (and women) on the earth, outside the Garden, sometime after Adam. As (rather, because) Adam fell, they also developed a capacity for sin.

Genesis 4:17 mentions Cain, son of Adam, had a wife. It was AFTER God banished him for killing his brother, so it couldn't have been his mom. Thus, other people who never knew the Garden. This proves a point in Jewish theology that the Jews were chosen from the beginning of time - their ancestor had been the only one to know paradise, no other men had been in the Garden.

[Ric]

Ric, that wouldn't be how it works....

Although I don't buy into Evolution, I'm pretty certain Natural Selection is real, as science has actually been able to demonstrate it. Additionally, Noah only rescued 2 of each KIND of animal. So in order for there to be the variety there is today, diversification must have happened.

There are a lot of factors that play into it. Diet, climate, altitude, etc. all can make for changes not so much to evolve, but to live. I find it evenmore awesome that we were all created with the ability to adapt and overcome the cold, heat, humidity, rugged terrain, and so on.

Haven't seen many people adapt to be able to live in the belly of a volcano yet, though.

Additionally, I'm not necessarily "young-earth" either. Even though I'm pretty sure there were between 4000 and 10000 years between Adam and Jesus, we can't know how long Adam was in the Garden before the fall. And we cannot know how long after the eating of the fruit that God kicked them out. We're they in the Garden for a week? A year? A billion years? Let's not forget the reason God kicked them out is to keep them away from the Tree of Eternal Life. Adam and Eve could have conceivably lived billions of years in the Garden.

You have a very good point, Reach. Something I never thought of.

Also, the Bible never says Adam and Eve were the ONLY humans created. Genesis simply highlights them because they are the ancestors of the Jews, and the Jews didn't really care about anyone else, so those records wouldn't have been included. I find it very probable that God created men (and women) on the earth, outside the Garden, sometime after Adam. As (rather, because) Adam fell, they also developed a capacity for sin.

Genesis 4:17 mentions Cain, son of Adam, had a wife. It was AFTER God banished him for killing his brother, so it couldn't have been his mom. Thus, other people who never knew the Garden. This proves a point in Jewish theology that the Jews were chosen from the beginning of time - their ancestor had been the only one to know paradise, no other men had been in the Garden.

When you say Jew, are you speaking of the tribe of Judah, or the Hebrews as a whole? Moses wrote the first five books of what we came to know as the Bible, and if I recall, he wasn't a Jew. As for God creating other men and women... I suppose He could - He is GOD, after all - but if He would have gone into such detail as saying HOW He created Adam and Eve, it seems that He'd have done the same concerning other peoples as well.

What I've heard before(and it makes more sense to me, honestly) is that not all of Adam and Eve's kids are mentioned in Genesis. Kinda like even our own Declaration of Independence says "that all men are created equal..." with no mention of women. So, it's plausible that Adam and Eve had lots of other kids(930 years is a long time to be having kids!), such that by the time Cain left, there were several generations of people across the explored earth. But when you suggest that God made more people over here in this corner, it starts to chip away at the foundation our faith sits on.

Plus, if the Jews wanted to brag that THEIR ancestor had been in paradise, then wouldn't it be a bit laughable that their ancestor was so stupid as to knowingly do what God had said not to do from the word go? If anything, it's his fault we have to die, and from an unbeliever's point of view, I wouldn't want anything to do with the one who ruined it all for us.

I'm not standing behind this stuff as infallible, by the way. I do appreciate the mental exercise you bring to the table, bro. I think the main thing is that we be committed to Christ. And once we get to Heaven, we'll know all this other stuff.

[Reach2011]

Neither, I meant people of the Jewish faith. I will never, ever use Jew as a nationality because it isn't. And Moses was a Jew.

It's not that the Jews bragged, it's that God had chosen the Jews to be His people from the beginning of time...sort of like Jewish Supralapsarianism, if you will. Of course, they still don't understand the significance of being chosen....that theirs is the people into which God would be incarnated. And they believed that you could have replaced Adam and Eve with any 2 people, and the Fall still would have happened.

What makes you so sure he didn't reveal the way He created other men? Just because it isn't in our Bible doesn't mean there wasn't a revelation about it. The Creation stories of what we now call Mythology, for example. Who's to say they didn't start as origin stories, like Genesis, but a superstitious people warped then to fit the stories of their own gods? And these wouldn't be included in the Bible, because what do the Hebrews care about the ancestors of the Visigoths? Nothing.

Another thing is, Jews didn't care about conversion. If you were a Jew, come in, brother. If not, get out, unclean one. So they never bothered to look at an unbeliever's perspective.

[Ric]

Jewish Supralapsarianism

HUH???

As for God revealing something to someone outside the Bible? I know it can happen, but I'd be real careful to check it against the Bible. Sounds like circular reasoning, I'd imagine, but just like we as a nation should make sure certain laws are constitutional, we as believers should make certain that what someone calls a revelation from God is in fact biblical. Otherwise, we're guilty of being quick to lay hands on people and so share in their sins. I've made that mistake before, and I really, REALLY don't wanna do it again!

[Reach2011]

Supralapsarianism is the belief that God's elect, those He will save, were chosen before the Fall of man. So Jewish Supralapsarianism is a tongue-in-cheek name I gave the belief that the Jews were God's chosen people before the Fall of Man.

[rickmorrisjr]

I used to be a Young Earth Creationist. But, I recently read Genesis again. Something struck me that never occurred to me before.

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

What hasn't happened yet?

Answer: The 1st day. That does not happen until verses 3-5.

There may have been Billions of years between the period at the end of the sentence of verse 1 and the first letter of verse 2.

It is not unprecedented for GOD to place gaps into scripture. For instance: We have been living in a gap of nearly 2000 years. We are currently in between Week 69 and week 70 as per Daniels 70 weeks.