HEBREWS CHAPTERS 5-6

[Kevin Young]

This week we are moving forward to Chapters 5 and 6 of Hebrews. I hope you are enjoying this amazing book of the Bible as much as I am. After you read the chapters, please post your thoughts, questions, and insights here in this thread. God bless you all.

[sassy1506]

“You are my Son;
today I have become your Father.”

This was stated earlier, I believe. My pastor said that they repeated things a lot in the bible, since they didn't have punctuation. The repeated things were instead of adding exclamation marks. I don't know how people lived before exclamation marks . . .

8 Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered

Just like everyone else. Sort of. He didn't need discipline 'cause He was perfect, but He still suffered. Which isn't fair. But nothing in life's fair.

11 We have much to say about this, but it is hard to make it clear to you because you no longer try to understand.

One of the first times I went to my friend's youth group, the youth pastor said something about how God makes it so we thirst for Him. Which I get. But then he said that after a while, if we keep ignoring Him, we've gotten so used to it that we don't thirst for it anymore. It's like this. We don't try to understand Him anymore.

6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance.

Just like what I said before.

Maybe I should read through the entire thing before saying anything . . . but my mind doesn't work that way.

10 God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them. 11 We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, so that what you hope for may be fully realized. 12 We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised.

This got me thinking of how we formed one of our youth group's rules. We have a lot of people that never make any of the meetings or fundraising activities and only come to the concerts and parties. So we made a rule that you have to make 1/3 of meetings and 1/3 of fundraising activities. That way people can't expect to be lazy and still get the benefits of everyone else's hard work.

That's all I have . . . I can't concentrate today.

[bookshelver317]

In Hebrews 5: 7 it says, (NCV translation) "While Jesus lived on earth, he prayed to God and asked God for help. he prayed with loud cries and tears to the One who could save him from death, and his prayer was heard because he trusted God." To me, prayer is a really huge part of trusting God. When we pray to Him we are not only giving praise for all that He's done in our lives, but we also ask for His help in tough situations, or even just for guidance. When we pray and ask God for help, we are trusting Him with our situations.

[kcvearner]

Therefore let us move beyond the elementary teachings about Christ and be taken forward to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God,

I've read these verses many times (54 years).
Tonight as I read them I recalled song lyrics from a Rich Mullins song called "Heaven in His Eyes"

And I'm not talkin' about the pie in the sky
That you good boys and girls get in the by and by
But rather the strength, the strength that we can find
If we've got the guts to try

This is why a man as holy as He
Had to die on Calvary
It was the only way that we could ever see
The Heaven in His eyes

Its wonderful how God's Word will trigger thoughts

[Kevin Young]

1Every high priest is a man chosen to represent other people in their dealings with God. He presents their gifts to God and offers sacrifices for their sins. 2And he is able to deal gently with ignorant and wayward people because he himself is subject to the same weaknesses. 3That is why he must offer sacrifices for his own sins as well as theirs.   4And no one can become a high priest simply because he wants such an honor. He must be called by God for this work, just as Aaron was. 5That is why Christ did not honor himself by assuming he could become High Priest. No, he was chosen by God, who said to him, "You are my Son.   Today I have become your Father.*"

Here we see that Jesus was chosen by God to be High Priest for all people. But did you know that God has called us all to be priests as well. 3 times in the Bible, God referred to us as priests.

1. When God first called the people of Israel to be His people, this is what He said to them, Exodus 19:5-6 "5Now if you will obey me and keep my covenant, you will be my own special treasure from among all the peoples on earth; for all the earth belongs to me. 6And you will be my kingdom of PRIESTS, my holy nation.' This is the message you must give to the people of Israel."

2. Then God calls Christians PRIESTS in 1 Peter 2:8-9 "8And, "He is the stone that makes people stumble,   the rock that makes them fall."* They stumble because they do not obey God's word, and so they meet the fate that was planned for them.   9But you are not like that, for you are a chosen people. You are royal PRIESTS,* a holy nation, God's very own possession. As a result, you can show others the goodness of God, for he called you out of the darkness into his wonderful light."

3. And then at the end of the world, we will still be called God's PRIESTS. We see this in Revelation 5:9-10. It reveals a scene before God's throne....."9And they sang a new song with these words: "You are worthy to take the scroll   and break its seals and open it. For you were slaughtered, and your blood has ransomed people for God   from every tribe and language and people and nation. 10And you have caused them to become   a Kingdom of PRIESTS for our God.   And they will reign* on the earth."

Now back to our verse in Hebrews. Verse 5 says no one can become a priest simply because they just want to. You have to be chosen by God. Well guess what? If you are a Christian, then you have been called to be God's priest. What does that mean? Well Hebrews 5:1 says that a priest represents other people in their dealings with God. Jesus did that. We were separated from God because of our sin. Jesus came into the world and took God by one hand..... and took humanity by the other hand.... and brought us together. The Bible also says in Romans 8:34 that "Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is INTERCEDING for us." The word interceding means to plead. So Jesus is pleading for us. He is standing in between us and God.... calling our names before God.

So can you get an idea of what it means to be a Priest? We are to take God by one hand, and humanity by the other hand and bring them together. Paul talks about this in 2 Corinthians 5:11 "11Because we understand our fearful responsibility to the Lord, we work hard to persuade others." They work hard to persuade others and bring them to Christ. That's what we are to do. We (as priests) should work hard to persuade others and bring them to Christ. But a Priest also intercedes or prays for other people just like Jesus does for us. We see that God has called us to do that in James 5:16 "Confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed." We not only bring people to Christ, but after they receive him, it is our role to intercede on their behalf to God by praying for them.

So we are God's KINGDOM OF PRIESTS. We are called by God to bring people to Christ, and to pray for them and to intercede for them.

[Steph]

11 We have much to say about this, but it is hard to make it clear to you because you no longer try to understand.

One of the first times I went to my friend's youth group, the youth pastor said something about how God makes it so we thirst for Him. Which I get. But then he said that after a while, if we keep ignoring Him, we've gotten so used to it that we don't thirst for it anymore. It's like this. We don't try to understand Him anymore.

I really like this point! I've never really thought of it like that before. If we don't make the effort to spend time in God's Word and grow mature as a Christian, it's so easy for the messages of this world to drown out God's messages. I've definitely noticed a difference in my life between the times when I'm reading the Bible on a regular basis, and when I'm not. And it's definitely better when I am.

14 But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.

I guess this kinda goes with what I said above. How can we learn to truly distinguish good and evil, and to be able to tell what God's will is (His good, pleasing, and perfect will) if we aren't mature in our spiritual walk?

4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting Him to public disgrace.

So what do you guys think about this passage? Is it actually possible to lose your salvation? In the study notes in my Bible, one of the interpretations of this passage is that it refers to people who professed to be Christians, went through the motions, but were never actually truly saved. It also refers back to the Israelites who never made it to the promised land: "As Israel could not enter the promised land after spying out the region and tasting its fruit, so the professing Hebrew Christians would not be able to repent if they adamantly turned against "the light" they had received." Also, in verse 9 it says: "Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case - things that accompany salvation." That seems to me that the author is saying that he believes the people he is writing to are truly saved, but is giving a warning to any of the "posers" in the crowd.

Thoughts?

[Ric]

Is it actually possible to lose your salvation?

I don't think you can lose it. But I'm almost positive you can throw it away if you wanted to. After all, why would God drag anyone by the heels to a heaven they have no interest in?

Just my thought on the topic.

[Kevin Young]

4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting Him to public disgrace.

So what do you guys think about this passage? Is it actually possible to lose your salvation? In the study notes in my Bible, one of the interpretations of this passage is that it refers to people who professed to be Christians, went through the motions, but were never actually truly saved. It also refers back to the Israelites who never made it to the promised land: "As Israel could not enter the promised land after spying out the region and tasting its fruit, so the professing Hebrew Christians would not be able to repent if they adamantly turned against "the light" they had received." Also, in verse 9 it says: "Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case - things that accompany salvation." That seems to me that the author is saying that he believes the people he is writing to are truly saved, but is giving a warning to any of the "posers" in the crowd.

Thoughts?

I'm glad you brought that up Steph. When having this discussion there always seems to be two sides to the argument = 1. Once you are saved, you can never lose your salvation (eternal security) and 2. Once you are saved, you can backslide and lose your salvation. These two views seem to be polar opposites to each other. But yet, I find countless scriptures to support both sides. This leads me to believe that somehow both of these ideas are true at some level.

Let's look at the verse in question. Look at the description the writer gives to the people that have fallen away.... they had been enlightened, they had tasted the heavenly gift, they had shared in the Holy Spirit, they tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age. How can someone have never been a Christian and still taste the heavenly gift? How can someone who has no faith in God share in the Holy Spirit? When people sometimes talk about this verse, they use the term "they were never truly saved." So if that's true, then that means that you can be enlightened, taste the heavenly gift (what gift? almost definitely this refers to salvation), share in the Holy Spirit, taste the word of God, and the power of God and not truly be saved. How can you taste the gift and not be saved? How can you share in the Holy Spirit and not be truly saved?

Steph, you mentioned that you read a commentary talking about the idea of posers, or people who look saved but aren't truly saved. I will bring up two scriptures that that support the idea that someone looked like they were saved, but they weren't truly saved. The first verse is found in 1 John 2:19, "19These people left our churches, but they never really belonged with us; otherwise they would have stayed with us. When they left, it proved that they did not belong with us." The second is found in Matthew 7:22-23 "22On judgment day many will say to me, `Lord! Lord! We prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and performed many miracles in your name.' 23But I will reply, `I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God's laws.'" So there are great scriptures to support this idea. But that phrase "shared in the Holy Spirit"..... there is something about that phrase that makes me question things. So I won't say that I believe that a Christian can fall away; but I will say that I believe it is "possible." I find too many warnings to believers in the scriptures that prevent me from closing the door to the possibility that someone can fall away from God's grace.

This is what I believe. I believe that salvation is a matter of faith.

 Ephesians 2:8-9 "8God saved you by his grace when you BELIEVED. And you can't take credit for this; it is a gift from God. 9Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it."

1 John 5:4 "4For every child of God defeats this evil world, and we achieve this victory through our FAITH.

Hebrews 11:6 "6And it is impossible to please God without FAITH. Anyone who wants to come to him must believe that God exists and that he rewards those who sincerely seek him."

John 1:12-13 "12But to all who BELIEVED him and accepted him, he gave the right to become children of God. 13They are reborn—not with a physical birth resulting from human passion or plan, but a birth that comes from God.

So when looking at all of these verses, I see the presence of faith being associated with salvation and adoption into the family of God. There are many more verses I could put here, but I figured that was enough. With that being said, I believe that as long as faith is present, it is impossible to lose your salvation. We have become children of God. We have been made new (2 Cor 5:17).

So let's look at verses that point to us losing our salvation. In all of these verses, you will see the absence of FAITH being a factor, or trying to earn God's salvation through works. Let's take a look...

Galatians 5:4 "4For if you are trying to make yourselves right with God BY KEEPING THE LAW, you have been cut off from Christ! You have FALLEN AWAY from God's GRACE.

Romans 11:20-21 "20Yes, but remember—those branches were broken off because they didn't BELIEVE in Christ, and you are there because you do BELIEVE. So don't think highly of yourself, but FEAR WHAT COULD HAPPEN. 21For if God did not spare the original branches, he won't* spare you either.

Colossians 1:23 "  23But you must continue to BELIEVE this truth and stand firmly in it. Don't DRIFT AWAY from the assurance you received when you heard the Good News."

Hebrews 3:13-14 "13You must warn each other every day, while it is still "today," so that none of you will be deceived by sin and hardened against God. 14For IF we are FAITHFUL to the end, TRUSTING God just as firmly as when we first BELIEVED, we will share in all that belongs to Christ."

Revelation 2:4-5 "  4"But I have this complaint against you. You don't love me or each other as you did at first!* 5Look how far you have FALLEN! Turn back to me and do the works you did at first. If you don't repent, I will come and REMOVE your lampstand from its place among the churches."

Revelation 3:1-5 "1"Write this letter to the angel* of the church in Sardis. This is the message from the one who has the sevenfold Spirit* of God and the seven stars: "I know all the things you do, and that you have a reputation for being alive—but you are dead. 2Wake up! Strengthen what little remains, for even what is left is almost dead. I find that your actions do not meet the requirements of my God. 3Go back to what you heard and BELIEVED at first; hold to it firmly. Repent and turn to me again. If you don't wake up, I will come to you suddenly, as unexpected as a thief.   4"Yet there are some in the church in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes with evil. They will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. 5All who are victorious will be clothed in white. I will never ERASE their names from the Book of Life, but I will announce before my Father and his angels that they are mine.

I find this verse extremely interesting. You have to ask the question, "Why did Jesus say that he would never erase their names out of the Book of Life if it wasn't possible for their names to be erased?" David prayed in Psalm 69:28 "28Erase their names from the Book of Life;   don't let them be counted among the righteous." So with this scripture in mind, I have to leave the possibility open that someone's name can be erased from the Book of Life.


But then there are strong verses that suggest that we can never lose our salvation. Verses such as.....

John 10:26-29 "26But you don't BELIEVE me because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they will NEVER PERISH. No one can snatch them away from me, 29for my Father has given them to me, and he is more powerful than anyone else.* NO ONE CAN SNATCH THEM from the Father's hand."

Romans 8:38-39 "  38And I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from God's love. Neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,* neither our fears for today nor our worries about tomorrow—not even the powers of hell can separate us from God's love. 39No power in the sky above or in the earth below—indeed, nothing in all creation will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is revealed in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Philippians 1:6 "6And I am certain that God, who began the good work within you, will continue his work until it is finally finished on the day when Christ Jesus returns."

So to wrap what I believe. I lean heavily on these verses. I believe that I cannot lose my salvation as long as faith is present. I also believe that my faith is a gift from God, and that I could not even believe in Him unless He gave me the faith to do it. But I also believe that God does not force me to trust Him or continue to have faith in Him. Even though I sin, I believe my relationship with the Holy Spirit always leads me to repentance, and therefore I will never lose my salvation because of my relationship with God. But if for some reason a believer decides that they do not want God's grace anymore and willfully and knowingly denounces Christ and discontinues their FAITH in God..... then I believe in the possibility that God will let them go. Again, for me it is a matter of faith. As long as faith is present, I believe salvation is eternal. And knowing that faith is a gift from God reaffirms my hope and belief that I can never lose my salvation. But when FAITH is absent, I guess the best way to put it is Hebrews 11:6 which says "6And it is impossible to please God without faith. Anyone who wants to come to him must believe that God exists and that he rewards those who sincerely seek him."

[Ric]

Dude, you rock! Well, I mean with with way you explain stuff... but you can sing purdy gud, too, though.

It got me thinking about this dry spell I've been in in a new angle. Yeah, I've messed up, pretty badly here and there. But I still have faith that God is who He said He is, and it's time for me to show my faith by turning away from this sin and trusting God for the "fix" I tried to find in sin. Thank you for elaborating on that!

It hit me, this topic of faith... I just told God I wish I had as much faith in me as He did. Then it REALLY hit me that He still believes in me, seeing how I'm still alive and well. The Canaanites? The Philistines? God finally had enough of their wickedness - He no longer had faith in them, so to speak - and they were utterly destroyed, wiped off the face of the earth, decimated! So yeah, I'm glad He hasn't given up on me.

[WanderingStar]

It hit me, this topic of faith... I just told God I wish I had as much faith in me as He did. Then it REALLY hit me that He still believes in me, seeing how I'm still alive and well. The Canaanites? The Philistines? God finally had enough of their wickedness - He no longer had faith in them, so to speak - and they were utterly destroyed, wiped off the face of the earth, decimated! So yeah, I'm glad He hasn't given up on me.

That is a fascinating perspective on it. Thanks Ric-- I needed that.


And thank you for going into so much detail, Kevin. I have turned Hebrews 6 inside out in both Greek and English (if anyone really wants more information on the Greek syntax and how that changes the passage, let me know and I'll summarize), but having a step-by-step walk through of the issue helps me think through it a lot. Thanks again.

[Steph]

Wow, thanks Kevin! I really appreciate your detailed explanation!

And thanks for sharing, Ric! As Mary said, it's an interesting perspective.

[Kevin Young]

And thank you for going into so much detail, Kevin. I have turned Hebrews 6 inside out in both Greek and English (if anyone really wants more information on the Greek syntax and how that changes the passage, let me know and I'll summarize), but having a step-by-step walk through of the issue helps me think through it a lot. Thanks again.

Are you kidding me? "If anyone really wants more info on the Greek syntax and how that changes the passage........" Ummmmmmmm this is me officially saying I really want more information on that. I can't believe you made me ask I love it when you share with us your Greek knowledge. It is always mind-blowing.

I can't wait. Thanks Dr. Mary. Really... Thanks

[Steph]

And thank you for going into so much detail, Kevin. I have turned Hebrews 6 inside out in both Greek and English (if anyone really wants more information on the Greek syntax and how that changes the passage, let me know and I'll summarize), but having a step-by-step walk through of the issue helps me think through it a lot. Thanks again.

Are you kidding me? "If anyone really wants more info on the Greek syntax and how that changes the passage........" Ummmmmmmm this is me officially saying I really want more information on that. I can't believe you made me ask I love it when you share with us your Greek knowledge. It is always mind-blowing.

I can't wait. Thanks Dr. Mary. Really... Thanks

What he said. Haha. I love learning more historical kind of background when it comes to the Bible. Thanks, Mary! Did you study theology in college?

[WanderingStar]

Are you kidding me? "If anyone really wants more info on the Greek syntax and how that changes the passage........" Ummmmmmmm this is me officially saying I really want more information on that. I can't believe you made me ask I love it when you share with us your Greek knowledge. It is always mind-blowing.

I can't wait. Thanks Dr. Mary. Really... Thanks

This made my day. Thanks Kevin. I never want to be that one person who has some obscure theological or historical detail for every conversation and doesn't know when to be quiet, but if you all want to hear more, I love sharing.

OK, so here’s the shortest and least confusing I can make this... I’ll just be straight up and say that the Greek grammar either makes the issue much easier or much more complicated depending on how you choose to translate it, and it’s part of why the debate over this passage continues. First, the passage for reference. This is my own translation, which is choppy on purpose so you get a better idea of the construction in the original:

4 For it is impossible for those once enlightened, having tasted the free gift of heaven and having become partners with the Holy Spirit, 5 and having tasted good words of God and the power for the coming age, 6 and ([if] they fall away), to restore again in repentance, because they crucify the son of God and hold him up in public disgrace.

It’s important to mention that Hebrews has by far the most complex Greek style in the New Testament. Luke and Acts aren’t too far behind, but Hebrews is on its own level. So working out exactly what it says can be pretty challenging.

Hebrews (and this passage in particular) makes pretty heavy use of a form called a participle. In Greek, the participle is a very useful but complex construction-- there are a lot of ways that participles can be translated in the context of a sentence.

I put a phrase in verse 6 in parenthesis. That phrase there is one word in Greek-- παραπεσόντας, which is the participle form of the word meaning “to fall away,” which can also mean “to commit apostasy.” The structure of the sentence here is ambiguous regarding how this participle should be translated. Here are the two major options for how to translate the Greek. I’m not out to say which one is “right,” just trying to make you all aware of the options and add some depth to the issue.

First, it could be translated “and if they fall away” (this being an adverbial conditional participle). There is a lot of room for debate within this possibility though. Syntax allows for it implying a very remote possibility, like the author was speculating about something that wasn’t actually expected to happen, just using a hypothetical but impossible situation to make an argument about the importance of holding firm in your faith (that is a legitimate rhetorical device in Greek-- they overstated things all the time to make a point).

The second possibility, which has become very popular in recent scholarship, is that it could be translated simply “and they fall away” (taking it as an adjectival substantival participle). Putting it in this category links it together with each of the statements describing a person that have come before (the grammatical reasons are more complicated than I can go into here). This is important because the “if” translation can be understood as meaning that there are people who have shared in the Spirit and so on, but there are not necessarily those in that group who have fallen away (remember, if could imply nothing more than a hypothetical statement). But if we take it simply “and they fall away,” it more or less removes that ambiguity-- it is much stronger support for the idea that some in that group who have shared in the Spirit do fall away (and some in the original audience may have already), thus making “losing your salvation” a very real event to be warned against.

I don’t want it to seem like these two options are black and white for and against eternal security-- it’s never that simple (unfortunately, even the original Greek doesn’t immediately solve theological difficulties-- sometimes it creates more). Of course it's still valid to argue that verses 4 and 5 describe a poser instead of someone genuinely saved, so if you’re on the eternal security side of things, the second option I listed isn’t necessarily an impossible obstacle. But basically, whichever option you take for translating it does radically impact the theology you take from this passage.

I’m also going to make things even more complicated here by reinforcing that any passage needs to be taken in context-- no matter how much I know about a passage and even its original Greek form, I’m not being faithful to my task as a student of the Word if I don’t look at it as part of the bigger picture of the Bible. That’s why what Kevin does with walking through a bunch of passages on the issue is awesome. So whatever way you translate this, it has to be balanced against what we find elsewhere in the Bible, and even elsewhere in this same section (as Steph pointed out, verses 9 and 10 definitely add another interesting layer to this).

I love learning more historical kind of background when it comes to the Bible. Thanks, Mary! Did you study theology in college?

Learning more about the background is awesome! Technically speaking, I didn't major in theology-- it was one of my three minors (and my major was Digital Writing). But I ended up taking nearly twice as many classes as were required for a Bible minor because I love it so much, and by the time I graduated last month, most of the theology department at my school was telling me I should really go on and get a Masters in Theology. Which I'm seriously considering doing, because studying the Bible and theology and Greek is just ridiculously fun.

[Lainie]

I love it, Mary, but you made my brain hurt! Lol...

[Steph]

Thanks so much, Mary! I love the insight you were able to bring. I think it would be fascinating to study Greek someday and be able to read the Bible in the original language.

[WanderingStar]

...you made my brain hurt! Lol...

My friends tell me this a lot.


Thanks, Steph! Greek is awesome. I highly recommend it. I'm really wanting to study it more, and eventually maybe Hebrew.

[stacfo]

I've just been lurking through this study so far, but I had to just pop up and say WOW. All the insight thru these two chapters was just amazing. Thanks!

[Kevin Young]

Mary, I love the part of your translation that said "partners with the Holy Spirit." Heavy stuff. Thank you so very much.