HEBREWS CHAPTERS 12-13

[Kevin Young]

We are wrapping up Hebrews this week. Let's go out with a bang! After you read the chapters, please post your thoughts, questions, and insights here in this thread. Love you all!

[joannas]

I only read a little way into the text and was already encouraged.
In 12:5-13, it talks about how we are God's sons (and daughters), and how God disciplines those who He loves. In verse 7 it says "Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father?" When we go through trials, we often get mad, or even just down in the dumps and depressed. But when we endure hardships we need to remember 3 things: one, God may be disciplining us, and if He is, it is because He loves us and knows that we need it; two, if the hardship involves persecution, it proves that we really are saved, because Jesus tells us many times that the world persecuted Him, so those in the world will persecute us as well; and three, trials make us stronger in our faith, so we should take joy in them. James 1:2 says "Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith develops perserverance." So trials are not only proof of God's love for us, but also help us to grow stronger and get closer to God.

[WanderingStar]

I would agree with joannas. It's interesting to me that here, as in many other places in the New Testament, hardship is considered a blessing, even a mark that you're really God's child (which makes sense-- most good parents are way more concerned with disciplining their own kids than other peoples' kids). This is one of those passages that is really hard to swallow. The question of how a loving God could allow us to endure pain seems to be the most universal question of those who come in contact with Him... and yet here it says that it's because He loves us that He disciplines us.

None of my thoughts here are particularly new, but they're very relevant for me to think on right now. I think what this comes down to is that we don't always really know what is good for us. God knows-- He uses the things we suffer to shape us and ultimately produce "a harvest of righteousness and peace." And in the end, God is much more concerned with giving us what we need than He is with giving us what we want. I think of the way I used to have to keep my younger siblings from doing things like touching hot stoves or running outside barefoot when there was broken glass out there... they would get mad because they weren't getting what they wanted and they felt like they'd lost some privilege, because they didn't know enough to understand how harmful their actions would be if I didn't hinder them. And of course I was stopping them because I loved them, even though they didn't understand that. So sometimes the kindest and most loving thing God can give us is something that to us just looks like pain. But... I think all of us could agree that there have been times we've suffered something awful and then on the other side we saw how God was working through it, how He used it, and then we know we wouldn't have traded that experience for anything. And even when we need pain to discipline us, God as our Father is still there to comfort us in middle of it. And that is encouraging.

[Ric]

Wow yall, that's deep stuff!

18 You have not come to a mountain that can be touched and that is burning with fire; to darkness, gloom and storm; 19 to a trumpet blast or to such a voice speaking words that those who heard it begged that no further word be spoken to them, 20 because they could not bear what was commanded: “If even an animal touches the mountain, it must be stoned.” 21 The sight was so terrifying that Moses said, “I am trembling with fear.”

The intended audience would've known this was referring to Mt Sinai, where the old covenant was established with the Hebrews. Maybe I'm going off on a tangent here, but it helps to get the picture of that moment:

A mountain burning with fire, darkness, gloom, storm... sounds like an erupting volcano(I'm not trying to rewrite holy Scripture, but it does fit). And God was calling all of Israel to come up and be with Him on it. Of course they were scared! It was a test that they failed, because they loved this life more than they did God. Moses, terrified as he was, went up through the storms, the lightning, the ash, the falling lava and brimstone, and he found God. He fasted for forty days. I believe that to be a miracle in itself, because it's medically accepted that you can only go 30 days without food, 3 days witnout water, and 3 minutes without air. Well, if Moses was atop an erupting volcano, then where's he gonna find water or even breathable air??? God sustained him. When Moses came down, he found that - I'm modernizing this bit, 'cuz I've seen it happen a lot - the people had voted him out as pastor in a secret meeting, they had made an image of what they thought God should look like, and they rewrote the laws to fit their desires and what they thought was okay. Moses walked into this big orgy right after his encounter with God, and he was enraged. In the chaos that ensued, 3000 people were killed because of their open rebellion against what they KNEW was right.

22 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

Compare this with the horrible imagery of the old covenant. This sounds like paradise! Even if the old covenant was somehow still in effect, I'd still choose Jesus because of the freedoms He guarantees.

Interesting to note that Abel's blood cried out for vengeance(old covenant), whereas Jesus' blood cries out for forgiveness(new covenant). Also, I dunno if it means anything, but it's kinda cool that while 3000 were killed in the day the old covenant was established, there were 3000 added to the kingdom on the day of Pentecost(new covenant).

25 See to it that you do not refuse him who speaks. If they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, how much less will we, if we turn away from him who warns us from heaven?

Stern words of warning. If they were punished for not listening to Moses and the prophets, then how much worse will it be for those who ignore Jesus Himself?

28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe, 29 for our “God is a consuming fire.”

It hit me hard here that there's an acceptable way to worship God, and the way I've been doing it just might not be that acceptable. So it behooves me to search out how God wants me to worship Him, and do it that way with reverence and awe. Kinda like you can't praise God with the wacky tobacky, even though He did create it.

[stacfo]

It hit me hard here that there's an acceptable way to worship God, and the way I've been doing it just might not be that acceptable. So it behooves me to search out how God wants me to worship Him, and do it that way with reverence and awe.

Oh Ric-that's just what I was looking for! I've been in a funk and a slump because of some life bombs that have hit recently, and was seriously struggling with my worship. 'Preciate you letting God use you to be my postman for the day

[Ric]

Honestly, I was completely shooting from the hip there. It's all God.

[Kevin Young]

I only read a little way into the text and was already encouraged.
In 12:5-13, it talks about how we are God's sons (and daughters), and how God disciplines those who He loves. In verse 7 it says "Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father?" When we go through trials, we often get mad, or even just down in the dumps and depressed. But when we endure hardships we need to remember 3 things: one, God may be disciplining us, and if He is, it is because He loves us and knows that we need it; two, if the hardship involves persecution, it proves that we really are saved, because Jesus tells us many times that the world persecuted Him, so those in the world will persecute us as well; and three, trials make us stronger in our faith, so we should take joy in them. James 1:2 says "Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith develops perserverance." So trials are not only proof of God's love for us, but also help us to grow stronger and get closer to God.

Joannas........ you have no idea how much I needed your words today. Thank you. Seriously. Thank you.

[Kevin Young]

11:27 It was by faith that Moses left the land of Egypt, not fearing the king's anger. He kept right on going because he kept his eyes on the one who is invisible.

And let us run with endurance the race God has set before us. 2We do this by keeping our eyes on Jesus, the champion who initiates and perfects our faith.*

I love these verses. We run by keeping our eyes on Jesus. Give me faith to keep my eyes on the one who is invisible.

11No discipline is enjoyable while it is happening—it's painful! But afterward there will be a peaceful harvest of right living for those who are trained in this way.

It is painful indeed. Not trying to be a big dork and quote Disciple songs, but today I need to be reminded "it's worth the pain."

  12So take a new grip with your tired hands and strengthen your weak knees. 13Mark out a straight path for your feet so that those who are weak and lame will not fall but become strong.

Taking a new grip right now

15Look after each other so that none of you fails to receive the grace of God. Watch out that no poisonous root of bitterness grows up to trouble you, corrupting many.

Noted...

14For this world is not our permanent home; we are looking forward to a home yet to come.

Yep

[WanderingStar]

If Kevin could quote Disciple, then I guess I'll follow in the same general vein and share this for those who might need to hear it, since it relates pretty strongly to what we've been talking about in terms of suffering/discipline and has been a massive encouragement to me-- I've watched this like 20 times in the past few days: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4t6Ipcz_j5E

A final thought: I like how much hope there is throughout chapter 13. A good note to end the letter on. "Let us, then, go to him outside the camp, bearing the disgrace he bore. For here we do not have an enduring city, but we are looking for the city that is to come..." (Hebrews 13:13-14)

Thank you so much for your efforts and endurance in leading us through another study, Kevin. And I am so grateful to everyone who has posted-- I learn so much from everyone, every time, and it deepens and broadens my perspective. I love it.

[kerb7777]

I agree with most of what Kevin said in that video, except the hard times are supposed to crush the none believer until they give up and cry out to God for help! Every non believer knows about God or at least about 80% do! God said here: Jeremiah 31:34 ESV

And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."
Why you ask? Romans 2:14-16 NIV

(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) This will take place on the day when God judges people's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

We all need to remember these words in Hebrews today, we are Sons and Daughters of the Most High God people! Do we not know what this means? I really think as a youth pastor that we don't get it!!! But you will, stay in the word of God & meditate on it day and night! I now love this time in which we live, I have a bible app on my smartphone that I can put my headphones in and play my bible while I am sleeping this is so cool and I challenge each of u to do the same! Remember 3things, 1. Take every thought captive and make them obedient to Christ Jesus, 2. Lay down your burdens: to Jesus who cares, 3. Cast out all your anxiety on him!
If you do these 3 things u will have a better mind to fight the battle with! Love the Lord with all ur heart, mind, soul & strength!

[emberly11]

Hebrews 12:7-8
7 Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? 8 If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons.

After reading these verses I thought about people who get "saved" in order to make all of their problems go away. They try to be buddy buddy with God so that they don't have to suffer anymore. Little do they realize that Christians undergo the same types of trials and suffering that non-believers do. I believe that, at times, believers go through things that are more difficult due to the fact that we are the born again children of God and our Father holds us to a higher standard. Just like our earthly parents, God expects the very best from His children. He wants us to do our very best to live a Christ-like life and to give Him all of the glory for the things He has done for us. Sometimes when we are in the center of our trial and suffering it is hard to remember that God loves us and is trying to teach us something important. We just need to open our eyes, ears, and hearts so that we can fully understand what He is trying to teach us and then use what we have learned to help others who find themselves in the same place that we just came out of.

I also know that when enduring trials we begin to wonder why God is leaving us in this place of suffering. Doesn't He hear my cries for help? We get so caught up in our circumstances that we believe that God has forgotten about us. But Hebrews 13:5 reminds us that God will never leave or forsake us.

Another area that caught my attention is:

Hebrews 13:1-3
1 Keep on loving each other as brothers. 2 Do not forget to entertain strangers, for by so doing some people have entertained angels without knowing it. 3 Remember those in prison as if you were their fellow prisoners, and those who are mistreated as if you yourselves were suffering.

Sometimes we get so caught up in our own busy lives that we forget to take the time to help others in need. I am guilty of this. A prime example is the homeless man who stands on the side of the road with a sign asking for money for food. Around Birmingham this is a problem and a lot of these "homeless" men make a career out of taking money from people. I find it very difficult to help these types of people because I am aware of the problem. Then again, who am I not to help them? How do I know whether or not this particular person is truly in need? As a Christian, I am supposed to help everyone that I can. Who knows, the man standing by the road could be an angel.

Matthew 25:35-40
35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in. 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me. 37 Then the righteous will answer him, Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did wee see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go visit you? 40 "The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

[Steph]

12:3 Consider him who endured such opposition from sinful men, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.

This verse really stuck out to me. It's encouraging to think that whatever we are going through, Jesus went through, and worse. Yet He endured to the end. If He can do it, then by His strength, so can I. And it's encouraging that He is sitting at the right hand of God, making intercessions on our behalf.

12:12-13 Therefore, strengthen your feeble arms and weak knees. Make level paths for your feet, so that the lame may not be disabled, but rather healed.

These verses also really stood out to me. Just recently, God has put a couple friends in my life who are going through some hard times in life, and are kind of wavering/struggling/new to their faith. With some guidance of other Christian friends/pastors, I've been trying to help them in their faith. (I'm reading through John with the one girl, and my pastors suggested a Discipleship sort of study for me to lead them both through.) I feel like through this, I have grown closer in my relationship with God. Like these verses (and my study notes) say, I need to strengthen my faith and remain "upright in my conduct" to "help, rather than hinder, the spiritual and moral welfare of others." And honestly (also, not to be a big dork or whatever), I really believe that me discovering Disciple a few months ago has really helped me get closer to God, from just getting the Word of God in my head by listening to their music so much, to doing this study here on the boards. Sometimes God's timing is just...

So Kevin, sincerely...thank you. I so appreciate what y'all do as a band, and leading this study here.

12:28-29 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe, for our "God is a consuming fire."

Ric, I also really appreciated what you said about this. It does make you take a look at how you worship. And honestly, I don't know how often I come to God full of reverence and awe. These verses were a good reminder that we need come to God as such, and also to be thankful of everything He has done for us.

13:6 So we say with confidence, "The Lord is my helper; I will not be afraid. What can man do to me?"

These verses were also very encouraging to me. Like, if my God is for me, who can be against me? Sometimes that's hard to remember when day to day life gets in the way, and the frustrations of life get me down.

13:15 ...a sacrifice of praise - the fruit of lips that confess His name.

If we confess His name, and truly seek Him and get to know Him, how can we not offer praise?



This has been such a great study, and I've really enjoyed it! Thanks so much to everyone for posting...I definitely learned a lot from everyone!