penaoustal. ( i know i cant spell)

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Postby SevenFaith » Tue May 08, 2007 9:51 pm

ghs1994 wrote:That teaching about not being saved without evidence of the HS thru the use of tongues was something that really bothered me. I have heard of that .


I do not believe that in any form or fashion. So I totally agree with you there. As for the other I cant explain why everyone does what they do. I dont know that the ones who do those things are all wrong but I will give you the fact that some do it for attention. I can only speak from my own experiences. For sure some of those who may be in error usually wind up making the most noise so they get the most attention. So anyone remotely linked to them all get labeled into one group when that is not true. Sometimes they are making "noise" not to bring glory to God. I cant speak for every Pentacostal church or preacher or manifestation. As I said some take all things to extremes. Simply whether or not any of those things are of God is a forever debate but some abuse those things for sure. That is the truth. I am just careful to not throw it all out because some do.
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Postby Michael » Mon Oct 01, 2007 10:18 pm

Even Paul himself in 1st Corinthians chapter 14 did not bash speaking in tongues that many preachers now these days take COMPLETELY out of context.

Paul said, "I speak in tongues more than all of you."

He was not bashing speaking in tongues at all.

He was just saying in a public meeting with other Christians that it helps the whole congreation to have a word of prophecy to come out instead of speaking in tongues that only helps that one person who is speaking the tongues.

A word of prophecy can help everyone there. Speaking in Tongues only helps the one person who is speaking it. He was just saying that it is more benefitual to prophesy in public.

He was not critizing speaking in tongues or anything.
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Re: penaoustal. ( i know i cant spell)

Postby RockSolid87 » Sat Feb 16, 2008 12:53 am

Actually, the "gift of tongues" and the "baptism of the Holy Spirit" is Biblically non-existent in the form that Charasmatics use it.

Let me explain...

The Day of Pentecost...people spoke in tongues...

The word Tongues simply means "language" ...not gibberish :mrgreen:

When the people were speaking in the gift of tongues, they did not speak in some miraculous God-inspired language... They were speaking their own language, but the miracle was that other people from different countries could hear every different language in their own "tongue" (language)

Example:

I don't speak Hebrew...I speak only English...but if a friend of mine speaks Hebrew, and doesn't speak English...when we talk to each other, we cannot understand what the other person is saying... That is how it was on the day of Pentecost...but the gift was... (back to the example), if me and my friend received the "gift of tongues" as on the Day of Pentecost, me and my friend could speak to each other and he could understand my English in Hebrew, and when he spoke Hebrew, I would be hearing him in English, even though I don't speak Hebrew, and he doesn't speak English..

Plain and simple...

Oh, and btw, the wonderous gifts of miracles, signs, wonders, and "tongues" ended with the Apostles. Jesus only gave those gifts to the apostles! When the Apostles died, so did their gifts of performing miracles and signs... Also, when they died, the Bible was completed, therefore signs and wonders were no longer needed to show people God...they now had God in the completed form of the Bible!

Plain and simple... :)

Not trying to argue, but enlighten :idea: ;)

I can give more info if anyone is interested...thanks for your time in reading this...just trying to help spread the Truth of the Bible

-RockSolid87 -- Jesus Saves!
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Re: penaoustal. ( i know i cant spell)

Postby SevenFaith » Sat Feb 16, 2008 2:08 pm

Speaking in tongues is not gibberish except to those who cant do it. It is a language and those who speak in tongues are speaking a different language. There are many out there. It only sounds like that because someone speaking German sounds like gibberish to me. It is not for us to communicate to each other. It is only for prayer for God knows everything and if it translated because it has prophecy in it and that is the only way it is supposed to be spoken in front of others as in a church setting.
There are differences of opinion on the subject but it is only through ones view of scripture that can make it non existent. It is very existent and biblical to those who believe it. To the many out there with solid biblical beliefs in Jesus and the bible it does happen.
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Re: penaoustal. ( i know i cant spell)

Postby Jody McPunchyouintheface » Sat Feb 16, 2008 3:02 pm

RockSolid87 wrote:
Oh, and btw, the wonderous gifts of miracles, signs, wonders, and "tongues" ended with the Apostles. Jesus only gave those gifts to the apostles! When the Apostles died, so did their gifts of performing miracles and signs... Also, when they died, the Bible was completed, therefore signs and wonders were no longer needed to show people God...they now had God in the completed form of the Bible!




Funny cause i have personal experiences that says other wise.
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Re: penaoustal. ( i know i cant spell)

Postby RockSolid87 » Sat Feb 16, 2008 4:33 pm

Really?

Well, why don't you consider a Buddhist who spends his time meditating all day to reach a state of "nirvana"...his mind goes blank and he has an expirience too, but does that make what he's doing Biblically right?

I don't believe the Bible ever says anything about trusting your feelings or living life on "expirirences" you claim to have.

Satan can just as much give someone an expirience as what God can. Therefore you cannot base Biblical truths off of an "expirience" you had.

Now, true, salvation is an expirience...it involves a change in and out...but it does not involve tongues or any physical or mental expirience...it's a change of mind...nothing more, nothing less..

The Charasmatic's so called "tongue" is not a known language! Think of this, the Bible says that "God is not the author of confusion"...then why would tongues be so confusing to "those who can't speak it"? Why would God give something to one group of people and not everyone? Isn't salvation offered to anyone who accepts? Isn't salvation simply stated in the Bible? Then why is "tongues" different? Why is "tongues" so confusing and hard to understand? Why does tongues have to be interpreted? Jesus never had an interpreter, why would he give people a language that needs interpreting? Jesus never spoke in tongues, and neither did the apostles. If you will look in the Bible, you will find no evidence that can hold up to the rest of the scriptures in the Bible that supports the tongues theory. I guarentee it!

*refer to what I wrote earlier about what tongues really are and why the Apostles spoke with tongues, not gibberish...

Feel free to try and prove me wrong :mrgreen: I can give as much scripture to prove there is no tongues as necessary.

Once again, thanks for you time in reading this...not trying to argue, but to enlighten :) Please don't be offended

-RockSolid87
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Re: penaoustal. ( i know i cant spell)

Postby SevenFaith » Sat Feb 16, 2008 5:14 pm

Tongues must be intrreptrated because the bible says so. If that was not necessary then it would not be listed as gift.

1 Corinthians 12:10

10to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,[a] and to still another the interpretation of tongues.[b]

Jesus never spoke in tongues or needed an intrepretor because they did not come till the day of Pentacost after Jesus. Tongues are a known language there are many cases of ones who speak in foreign countries and it is heard and the natives know exactly what they are speaking or ones from other places who come here or wherever. It is a gift .. not everyone receives all of the gifts as the scripture above states. Everyone has different gifts.

1 Corinthians 12:30
30Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues[a]? Do all interpret?


Tongues have nothing to do with salvation. They are a seperate issue. If someone has told you that you are not saved if you cant then that is unbiblical. Tongues are to be spoken to God in prayer to which it is not confusing to him or with someone present whom has the gift of interpretation of tongues. They are not for going out to speak to crowds or strangers or whatever.

I have read the whole bible and have not found any scripture to state that there are not tongues. No one I know bases it off experiences but truth because the bible says we can.

1 Corinthians 12:28

28And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues.

These scriptures are for the church given by the Apostles not for the Apostles.

I am not trying to argue because you can believe what you wish about the topic. We all have that choice but I spent a lot of time praying and seeking God on this subject for myself and I can speak in tongues and my salvation and tongues are two totally different things. God give gifts to his children....you must become one first. I dont want to prove you wrong. Nor myself right. Christians spend too much time on subjects that divide us instead of ones that unite us. Whether I speak in tongues and you dont has nothing to do with Jesus as Lord and Savior in our lives. Therefore I am not offended or bothered by those who see it differently. It is just a discussion thread... which is the whole point isnt it? Discuss it.


1 Corinthians 14:21-28

21In the Law it is written:
"Through men of strange tongues
and through the lips of foreigners
I will speak to this people,
but even then they will not listen to me,"[a] says the Lord.

22Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is for believers, not for unbelievers. 23So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and some who do not understand[b] or some unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind? 24But if an unbeliever or someone who does not understand[c]comes in while everybody is prophesying, he will be convinced by all that he is a sinner and will be judged by all, 25and the secrets of his heart will be laid bare. So he will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, "God is really among you!"

Orderly Worship
26What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church. 27If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God.

Many use the following scripture to say tongues are no more.

8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

For some that means the bible.. I dont believe that. I believe it means when Jesus comes. Then we see him face to face. Jesus is the perfect one.
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Re: penaoustal. ( i know i cant spell)

Postby Jody McPunchyouintheface » Sat Feb 16, 2008 6:04 pm

Buddhist meditate simply because that's what they are taught through there belief system. Just like we, Christians, practice what we do which is, or should be, going through out the world making disciples.

Ah, but wait, that's the great commission. During that, Jesus told the disciples to go through out the world, making disciples.... teaching them everything that I have taught you.

Jesus taught the disciple's about the miracles, signs and wonders. So if to what you have previously said, that they do not exist, then why did Jesus tell them to teach them? To that theology, it makes no since to teach something that will not exist in the future.

To your statement about Satan can give experiences, here are some of mine:

, a few years ago, I was diagnoised with suffluxation of the back, where the alignment of the back is all out of whack. Some of the disk, bones, and joints, where in terrible condition, or at least that's what the charopractor said after looking at the test results. He also told me, that some of the nerve endings where in so bad of shape, and in very critical areas, that one move could severe the endings, and cut them off to my lungs and my heart, with the ending results would be death. He started to adjust my back, and scheduled me to come in every week for following adjustments. That next Sunday, at church, I had some people lay hands on me, and pray for healing. Immidiately I felt warmth cover my back, and I knew that I had been healed.
The following Tuesday, was my next appointment. I had The charopractor do another test, when the results where in, every bone, joint, legament, disk, everything in my back, where restored to 100%! He could not believe it. In just one week, I went from walking on the edge of death, to being healed.

Some more expiriences: While I was in Iquitos, Peru during the summer of 2004, others and myself had the oppertunity to pray for this 64 year old man who came to us and asked for prayer. Well he didn't himself ask, he's wife asked for him, cause he was born dumb, couldn't speak. He never made a sound in his 64 years of life. As we prayed for this man, he started weezing, then making really high pitch sounds out of his mouth. These sounds eventually turned into words, words of rejoicing, words of praise, words of love to the one who had healed him, Jesus Christ. He repeatidly said, "My God, My God, I can speak because of the healing power of Jesus Christ."

Another expeirience was in Lima Peru that same mission trip, A great friend of mine, Lauren, and myself prayed for a lady that had come forward in a wheelchair at a church service for prayer. She was pushed up to the alter by her sister. They told us she had a tumor on her back for 5 or 6 years, and she has not been able to walk because of it. She also had cancer of the uterus. After Lauren and I prayed, I asked the lady in the wheelchair, if she felt she could stand, she said she will try. I held out my hands for her to grab hold of, as she stood. She did. Then I told her lets go for a walk. Her walking led into running, her running led to jumping and squating. She even climbed the stairs to the stage to the pulpit to give her testimony of how Jesus had healed her.

Now that sounds like a few miracles, correct. But you might be asking the same question that the Religious leaders back in the days Jesus walked the earth. Which was Satan is healing what he has done, of something to that affect. Jesus simply responded, Why would Satan cast demons out?

Why would God give something to one group of people and not everyone?


Here's the thing, it is said in the bible, that the Gift of the Holy Spirit is for anyone who asks for it. It is for all who desire to have it, but not all will cause they simply do not ask, nor want it.

If you will look in the Bible, you will find no evidence that can hold up to the rest of the scriptures in the Bible that supports the tongues theory. I guarentee it!


My question: you said, "You will find no evidence that can hole up to the rest of the scriptures in the bible.... Are you saying that the bible contradicts itself, by saying one part of it says this, then it says that it's not?

True, Jesus never spoke in tongues, or it wasn't mentioned in the scriptures. Also, Jesus told the Disciples that He will send the Comforter soon. But there were accounts of being filled with the Holy Spirit before Jesus walked on the earth. Just take a look at John the Baptist. In Matthew, it says that when Mary hugged her cousin Elisabeth, the baby inside jumped, and was filled with the Holy Spirit.

Also, yes Tongues are to be interpreted, for the edification of the believers. Why do we not just know what is being said? I don't know. Something I can't explain, just like allot of things in the bible, that cannot be explained by man.

Now if you look in the bible it talks about 4 different types of tounges. They are I do believe, prayer, worship, prophetic, and ministry. The one that has to have the interpretation is the prophetic, for that is for the edification of the Believers. Prayer is just between the person and God. I have prayed in the spirit several times to God, in private and around others. I did not know what I was saying, but when I did ask God for the interpretation just for me, as I continued praying, and it came forth, it was exactly what I needed. How many times have you prayed, and it seems like you do not know what to pray, or it seems like you are praying the same thing that it sounds like you are a broken record? It happens.

Sorry for the long reply.
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But, my God, you don't.
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Re: penaoustal. ( i know i cant spell)

Postby KaintBkwite » Sat Feb 16, 2008 10:42 pm

RockSolid87 wrote:Once again, thanks for you time in reading this...not trying to argue, but to enlighten :) Please don't be offended



................ *cough*......... *ahem*..........*whistles* .........

*takes a deep breath*

*sighs*


:frown:


sorry man... just not seeing your "enlightenment".
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Re: penaoustal. ( i know i cant spell)

Postby RockSolid87 » Sat Feb 16, 2008 10:51 pm

Jody McPunchyouintheface wrote:Are you saying that the bible contradicts itself, by saying one part of it says this, then it says that it's not?


Sorry for the confusion about that part... no I don't believe the Bible contradicts itself at all...but things such as tongues are taken from scriptures that have been taken out of context. I don't have time to write a whole lot at the moment, but I'll try to explain more later. Back to the point... The Bible has to be looked at as a whole..not just some scriptures by themselves... there are scriptures to explain how people misunderstand what the gift of tongues really was (past tense), and if I have any time tommorrow or sometime this coming week, if you are interested, I can try to find time to post more from a book I've read about tongues...that is only if you're interested, because I don't want to force my beliefs on anyone, and I apologize if it appeares that I have been trying to, and I admit that even I can see how I was too impulsive. :(

It's never my intention to force things on people, but yet we are all sinful humans saved by a merciful God, and we, even myself, still fail at times :)

But if it would be better, anyone reading this who would like to further discussion about tongues, feel free to e-mail me: chimpanzee671990@yahoo.com

Thanks - God Bless - RockSolid87 -- Jesus Saves! -- Disciple Rocks!
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Re: penaoustal. ( i know i cant spell)

Postby KaintBkwite » Sat Feb 16, 2008 11:05 pm

RockSolid87 wrote:The Bible has to be looked at as a whole..not just some scriptures by themselves... there are scriptures to explain how people misunderstand what the gift of tongues really was (past tense), ...............

.............if you are interested, I can try to find time to post more from a book I've read about tongues...


The problem is that not that you're trying to force your beliefs on anyone, but you're trying to tell BELIEVERS who have experienced a "gift" of the Spirit, (which you don't believe to be in effect today) that the gift they've experienced isn't real. You might as well be saying to Christians everywhere, "the Holy Ghost you have inside you as a Christian isn't real at all or in effect today."

You don't get the Comforter without the gifts. The two cannot be separated. You can't deny the manifestation of the gifts or the Spirit of God would be considered null and void and ineffective. It is that SAME Spirit that is at work in the hearts and lives of men today on this earth, living inside us, powerful and effective, accomplishing the will of the Father for the kingdom of God through his people.
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Re: penaoustal. ( i know i cant spell)

Postby SevenFaith » Sat Feb 16, 2008 11:45 pm

Six separate lists of Spiritual Gifts appear in the New Testament:



1 Corinthians 12:8-10: Word of wisdom, Word of knowledge, Faith, Healing, Miracles, Prophecy, Distinguishing of spirits, Tongues, Interpretation of tongues



1 Corinthians 12:28: Apostle, Prophecy, Teaching, Miracles, Healing, Helps, Administration, Tongues,



1 Corinthians 12:29-30: Apostle, Prophecy, Teaching, Miracles, Healing, Tongues, Interpretation of tongues



Romans 12:6-8: Prophecy, Serving, Teaching, Exhortation, Giving, Leading, Mercy



Ephesians 4:11: Apostle, Prophecy, Evangelism, Pastor/Teacher,

1 Peter 4:11: Speaking, Serving


These are all gifts of the Spirit ... every Christian has at least one and it up to God who gets what. For me I dont think God took away one and left all the others. If the scripture in Hebrews is supposed to mean tongues are past tense why are they not all gone?

It was(F) declared at first by the Lord, and it was(G) attested to us(H) by those who heard, 4(I) while God also bore witness(J) by signs and wonders and various miracles and by(K) gifts of the Holy Spirit(L) distributed according to his will.


It is not that you have a different opinion that upset anyone it was you seemed to say there is no way but the way you believe. I dont think that of what I post. It may not be for you and that is why we get to chose whether we believe and go to a Pentacostal church or a Baptist church or whatever but we should still be brothers and sisters and not tell others what they experience is from Satan based off our view of scripture. There are many good books out there but we should know what we believe and why without having to use a book unless it is the bible. Books are written by men who can make errors.. The bible is written by God and any other 'book' is ones intrepretation.
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Re: penaoustal. ( i know i cant spell)

Postby Jody McPunchyouintheface » Sun Feb 17, 2008 12:32 am

I want to apologize, if it seemed like i was getting riled up, cause i wasn't. I know what I have experienced, and have seen, and that is the reason why I say what I did. I know that the holy spirit lives inside of me, and I have seen things and have been part of different things through the holy spirit.

Forward, I have read the bible through out, but I never hace read anywhere in it, that says, "Then tongues stopped existing." If it is, and I have overlooked it, please tell me. That would be something that would be in the bible if it has. Again I have never read it.
I'm sure if you wanted to stop love,
You could just untie your end and let it go.
But, my God, you don't.
Yeah, I think I love you for it. -As Cities Burn

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Re: penaoustal. ( i know i cant spell)

Postby Teo » Sat Mar 01, 2008 1:19 pm

Speaking in tongues scares me. In my country, there aren't any churches I know of where people speak in tongues and I've never witnessed a person doing that. It's too foreign to me.

I don't mean to start an argument or a debate on whether speaking in tongues is true or not. If you ask me, I don't know and I'd rather not think about it.
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Re: penaoustal. ( i know i cant spell)

Postby osu122975 » Sun Mar 02, 2008 12:46 pm

The issue of tongues is only an issue because someone has to prove their "biblical knowledge" about everything. Who really cares if tongues exist today or not, yet Paul describes a better way in the next chapter. Looking into this thread here, seems we ought to seek the better way and leave the petty arguments that cannot be proven to faith.

I have had this conversation with a few on here and the bottom line is, don't waste your breath because there are better things to discuss than this issue because it leads to pride rather than edification.

If they exist for someone in their life, why criticize them if everything else they do is Christ like. Should someone who believes tongues exist criticize you about not believing in them? Just serve in love. It's not as though we're talking about sin here.
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Re: penaoustal. ( i know i cant spell)

Postby SevenFaith » Sun Mar 02, 2008 1:48 pm

If they exist for someone in their life, why criticize them if everything else they do is Christ like. Should someone who believes tongues exist criticize you about not believing in them?


Of course they shouldnt.. that we can agree on. I dont think everyone should or have to and it has nothing to do with whether you are saved or not.. in my experience though it is easily the other way too...many who dont question or criticize those who do. As in this thread I only answered what was posed as questions to me (or ones who do speak in tongues) or criticism. It was a talk among those who do till we were asked. There are much bigger issues to me and we should concentrate more on what unites us sometimes instead of what divides us. OSU who doesnt speak in tongues is as much my brother as any one who does speak in tongues.
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Re: penaoustal. ( i know i cant spell)

Postby Jody McPunchyouintheface » Sun Mar 02, 2008 3:27 pm

Exactly..... Whether you do or don't, we still have the same main thing to do, and that is to spread the gospel of Jesus Christ. To fulfill the great commission. Why do Christians argue amongst Christians when there are people that we could be reaching out to that are not Christians? It doesn't make any sense....
I'm sure if you wanted to stop love,
You could just untie your end and let it go.
But, my God, you don't.
Yeah, I think I love you for it. -As Cities Burn

Last night I played a blank tape at full blast. The mime next door went nuts.
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Re: penaoustal. ( i know i cant spell)

Postby osu122975 » Mon Mar 03, 2008 5:30 pm

Yea, my sista SevenFaith can speak different languages and I had to go to school to learn Spanish. ;)

It's just not FAIR!!!! :lol:
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Re: penaoustal. ( i know i cant spell)

Postby SevenFaith » Mon Mar 03, 2008 7:32 pm

osu122975 wrote:Yea, my sista SevenFaith can speak different languages and I had to go to school to learn Spanish. ;)

It's just not FAIR!!!! :lol:



Now that is funny.. :D
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Re:

Postby KaintBkwite » Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:18 pm

osu122975 wrote:Seems funny to me all these Christians in our country who have the ability to speak in a foreign language whenever they want never go to preach the Gospel abroad.

... If some have the ability, we ought to be ashamed of not using it to spread the Gospel to other countries.


You know, I heard that you can take interpreters with you to have them interpret your English to others when you preach the gospel. Doesn't this mean anyone and everyone who's been called to preach the gospel could go into ANY country, regardless of their language capabilities and preach with an interpreter?

That means you could go too OSU! :D
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