2 CORINTHIANS CHAPTER 12 & 13

[Kevin Young]

Let's go ahead and wrap up 2 Corinthians this week. After reading chapters 12 & 13, please post your thoughts, insights, and questions here in this thread. Ric & Sam, since you guys were the biggest contributors to the 2 Corinthians study, I would love to see what book you guys would like to study next from the Old or New Testament. Love to all of you guys.

[Steph]

I think it's awesome that you do this here on the boards! I just recently joined the boards, so I came in in the middle of this study, but I look forward to joining in on the next book. I think it will help give me some discipline with regards to reading my Bible on a more regular basis.

[sassy1506]

I'm really gonna be missing these while I'm gone this summer.

9 But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness. ” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me. 10 That is why, for Christ’s sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

So I had a sudden urge to flip open my bible last night. I've felt the need to read it all weekend, but I spent all day cleaning the house on Saturday, and people were over all day Sunday, so last night was the first time I was able to.

Anyway, we had youth group last night and one of my HUGE weaknesses is the fact that I can't spend too much time around too many kids my age and younger. They start getting crazy, and I start getting seriously annoyed. So last night, after everyone left, I was going to go straight to sleep, but something stopped me and I felt like flipping open my bible.
So I flipped it open randomly, and it opened to 2 Corinthians. I was trying to find a page that wasn't dog-eared and didn't have anything circled, so I flipped past all that and this verse seemed to jump out at me.

For when I am weak, then I am strong.

I write my best songs when I'm having a hard time. Either I'm feeling lonely, or just plain depressed. In my weakest state, I write my strongest songs. When I don't have much of a reason to write, the song doesn't have as much of a meaning.

10 This is why I write these things when I am absent, that when I come I may not have to be harsh in my use of authority—the authority the Lord gave me for building you up, not for tearing you down.

What I'm drawing from this is a parent's discipline. As the bad kid in the family, I get a LOT of discipline. And I almost NEVER believe that all those push-ups are for my own good. But then I look back a while later and realize that whatever I was doing to earn those push-ups was stupid and I should never do it again. Granted, this probably has nothing to do with the real meaning, but whatever.

Ric & Sam, since you guys were the biggest contributors to the 2 Corinthians study, I would love to see what book you guys would like to study next from the Old or New Testament. Love to all of you guys.

How about Psalms? It's such a huge book, it's filled with a bunch of great verses, and it's got some powerful messages.

[Ric]

Ric & Sam, since you guys were the biggest contributors to the 2 Corinthians study, I would love to see what book you guys would like to study next from the Old or New Testament. Love to all of you guys.

Wow, man... just, wow.

I agree with Sam on Psalms, largely because it'd be uncharted waters for me. What little I know of it is good medicine for life, so I'm for it if yall are.

My first thought was Hebrews(my wife blurted out Revelation... she's a nut ), but then most of what I've pulled from it is better suited for "religious" people instead of bonafide Jesus seekers.

I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to be gained, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord. 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. 3 And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— 4 was caught up to paradise. He heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell. 5 I will boast about a man like that, but I will not boast about myself, except about my weaknesses.

My study guide says this was Paul talking about himself being caught up into Heaven. When he talks about hearing inexpressible things not meant for us to know here, it makes my hair stand up thinking about how amazing our REAL home is gonna be! Another thought hit me just now, too... could you imagine being that much in step with God, that He gives you a sneak peek of what He's putting together for us? It's amazing, yet humbling at the same time.

9 But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness. ” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me. 10 That is why, for Christ’s sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

Ever took pride in being insulted for your faith in Jesus? Don't most of us return fire and lose any witness we might have had?

Really... I should be celebrating right now. But, like the mere mortal I am, I'm guilty of griping about things that don't hold a candle to what Paul faced. In reality, if I'd just let myself be weak, God would be strong in me.

12 The things that mark an apostle—signs, wonders and miracles —were done among you with great perseverance.

Signs follow believers. As believers, we shouldn't follow signs(like tongues, prophecy, healings, etc). For if we truly believe, they will follow us, and lives will be radically changed.

14 Now I am ready to visit you for the third time, and I will not be a burden to you, because what I want is not your possessions but you.

I believe that's the heart of God right there!

20 For I am afraid that when I come I may not find you as I want you to be, and you may not find me as you want me to be. I fear that there may be quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, factions, slander, gossip, arrogance and disorder. 21 I am afraid that when I come again my God will humble me before you, and I will be grieved over many who have sinned earlier and have not repented of the impurity, sexual sin and debauchery in which they have indulged.

Sounds like some churches I used to go to!

Seriously, if we want to keep such from happening, we have to guard ourselves at all times, because all satan needs is a tiny crack in our armor, and he's in. Be careful what you let in your mind, what you accept as doctrine, sometimes even who you listen to. Without REPENTANCE, a church is more or less a cult.

CH 13

On my return I will not spare those who sinned earlier or any of the others, 3 since you are demanding proof that Christ is speaking through me. He is not weak in dealing with you, but is powerful among you.

Kinda sounds like a type of Jesus' return, eh?

5 Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you —unless, of course, you fail the test?

I take this to mean we need to check our decisions and actions next to those of Christ, especially when we would normally snap, spout off ugly words, or otherwise make a total (alternate word for "donkey") out of ourselves. If we're doing what Jesus would have done, then it's because He's in us. For who can mimic Him?

12 Greet one another with a holy kiss.

Of course, I'd probbly get punched in the face for kissing some of the brothers in Christ. But I believe we are supposed to show genuine love to fellow believers when we meet. In Paul's day that meant a kiss.

[WanderingStar]

I'm in middle of packing my life into a car to head out on the road right now, which has made posting challenging, but I've been reading and wanted to just throw a question out there:

9 But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me. 10 That is why, for Christ’s sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

I know we're all going over this part a lot, but I heard an issue raised about it recently that has me thoughtful: is the "weaknesses" here referred to weaknesses in terms of circumstance or Paul's actual personal weaknesses? I've heard it argued both ways-- weaknesses could refer to Paul's imprisonments, beatings, hardships, etc (things he had no basic control over) or to his own personal weaknesses like temptations (which would fit with the "thorn in the flesh" passage right before this). I honestly have no clue which way to take this-- the first way would mean boasting simply in the impossibility of circumstances and thus God being glorified because it was all Him, and the second would mean that we are to be open and honest about our own failings so that God is glorified, not us. On the first side I've heard it said that we should never take our personal weaknesses as something to boast about, and in support of the other side I've heard it said that this passage shows it's normal to have personal weaknesses and be allowed to talk about them as even a mature Christian. Does anyone have any thoughts on the better reading here? Or is it a case where maybe he's referring to both?

[Ric]

You make a very good point, and I think it could refer to both. I think we(especially us men) live in a society where only the strong survive, for lack of a better way of describing it. Because of that, we try so hard to look like we've got it all together when actually we're just hanging on by a thread. We say we have problems, but we never expound on them because that'd mean we had to show our true selves. In reality, God already see our true selves, problems, concerns, everything about us. Should we as Christians keep on trying to live the lie that we've got it all under control?

[superwheelerchick]

Honestly, I think Paul is referring to both here. Firstly, because he seems to explicitly mention both in the verses surrounding and secondly because of what's been going on in my own life. ("For the word of God is Living and active..")

I understand the argument about our "weakness" as far as temptations not being something to boast about, but that's where the "My Grace is sufficient" part comes in. He covers our short-comings and is therein glorified. Furthermore, God will use our hardships in life to show us his unfailing love and faithfulness. Not to mention that he can do anything even in the most impossible of situations.

I'll admit, I could be way off base here, but that's what I think.

[Kinsey]

I'm agreeing with the thought that it could be taken either way, and still have the same effect. I do think that Paul is using the term weakness on a personal level, since verse 10 lists it separately from things like persecutions and hardships. His point though is that he will use his own shortcomings as evidence of the grace of God. Either way you look at it, God's grace is infinitely more than enough to overcome our own weaknesses and those of our circumstances.

[Ric]

I'm agreeing with the thought that it could be taken either way, and still have the same effect. I do think that Paul is using the term weakness on a personal level, since verse 10 lists it separately from things like persecutions and hardships. His point though is that he will use his own shortcomings as evidence of the grace of God. Either way you look at it, God's grace is infinitely more than enough to overcome our own weaknesses and those of our circumstances.

Kinda like I tell people that it has to be God at work when I play guitar... my meaty, nubby hands just can't do it in the physical world!

[WanderingStar]

Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts on this, everyone-- I do think I like the idea that it could be both.